Curse

Nude Nira · Apr 10, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Now that ban is gone...

(quoted from few pages back)

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(blah blah blah, your second time posting this, congrats.) Who do you think you are to deserve special treatment? You're not playing any harder than me. You're not more dedicated.

Before I say something, I would like to commend you on posting the same thing twice, filled with yummy, yummy insults. GG, you are amazing.

Now...

Umm, farmers have never deserved "special treatment" that you talk about, all those nerfs to builds, nerfs to areas, LS........farming code. Do you even think before you post now? Or are you just making things up for +1? Oh and the hardcore farmers are rewarded because THEY ARE working, (typically) harder than the casual player. They are more dedicated, because the farmer stays in a zone, for possibly, hours, and they make money in the process, being rewarded for their hard work.

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Why should your playing style get INSANE rewards while mine keeps me poor?

And...why are you going on about how poor you are, when you say that you have millions of gold across your account, oodles of 15k sets, and a dozen leet weapons?

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I have well over a million gold in the bank, half a dozen sets of 15k armor, and a lot of other swank loot.

And I've never solo farmed a day in my life.

See how utterly ignorant you look when you assume things? You lost all your credit right there IMO.

Well...whatever you're doing is obviouslly working for you, why should you care if LS is removed? You have enough items/gold, etc to keep you happy (and you've never solo farmed, congrats!). And now look at what I can do, see how utterly ignorant you are? You lost all your credit in this topic aloooooong time ago....I feel dirty after using the I-word.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

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Originally Posted by Gli

It makes a crapload of difference with regard to rares alone. For example, solo farming a certain number of enemies in 1/3 of the time it takes a party of 8? That's 24 times as many rares/hour as each individual in the party would get. The merchant value of those alone makes farming still worth it. And then there's tomes, dyes, keys/lockpicks.

Except that these items are all chance-based and something good barely drops. Also, I believe we are not looking at Hard Mode here, but at Normal Mode. Hard Mode is only for the hardcore farmers.

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Originally Posted by Gli

Also, the exemption list is exactly the point. Items on that list are the intended reward for solo farming. You can't brush aside the rewards you do get and go on to complain you're not rewarded.

90% of the items on the Exemption List are worth less than 100 gold. The rest is worth something more, but ONLY if you sell to real players. The Exemption List supports Hardcore farming. I can understand that some people farm 10 hours a day, get 3 req 8 Elemental Swords and then spend another 3 weeks to sell them in LA, but casual players don't want to spend 3 weeks standing in an outpost doing nothing just for a few platinum. Cash isn't the thing that matters, it's the stuff you buy with the cash.

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Originally Posted by Gli

Casual farmers don't want rares, dyes, keys/lockpicks, etc.? Weirdoes! No wonder they're so poor.

Yes, because when farming in Normal Mode, these items barely drop, and when they drop, they're still worthless 80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Gli

They do drop quite frequently for me when I farm.

This is all a matter of chance, but if you get loads of black dyes, lockpicks and perfect goldies, you are the one that is lucky, it's not the others that are unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Gli

You really need to define that 'casual farming' of yours.

Casual farmers are farmers that don't have the time to waste in an outpost trying to sell an item for 10 hours. For them, white junk is the only good source of income, since other stuff is only worth something when sold to other players.

In other words, Casual farmers farm because they HAVE to. They farm to play the game, instead of dicking around in an outpost trying to sell a super-rare item that makes them insta-rich IF they manage to sell it.

AshenX · Apr 10, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It all depends on your perspective. Enemy mobs were designed for full teams so it's 1 player going against a mob designed for 8 players. Regardlessly of how you percieve it, solo farmers have to do more work than a full team for roughly the same amount of loot hence it is not fair and his statement made no sense.

Your logic would only hold up if a solo farmer actually spent 8 times as much time and effort farming their mobs as it takes for a party of 8 to clear the same area. If it did though there woud be little or no solo farming because your yield would be the same as if you were in a party of 8 (8 time as long to clear the area for 8 times the drops = parity with party of 8. mathematical fact not opinion)

Now as regards to the statement that a solo farmer is doing 8 times the work... I solo farm alot (Perhaps I should say multiple hours a day. By some standards 2-4 hours a day is not alot.) in cycles (if my alliance is doing anything interesting or I am in a PVP mood then farming gets put on hold). When I solo farm I am using builds and choosing my locations based on minimum effort to greatest yield ratios.

My builds are designed for near infallibility and ultimate efficiency. When I slaughter mobs in HM with my terra tank-eternal sliver armor build I am actually working less than a team of eight would in the same area. I stand there and recast enchantments when they start to go down. I move adjacent to the casters so that they get their share of the damage. Very little more than that is needed and the mobs drop fast. In fact IAS for monsters in HM means that in some areas they die faster in HM than they do in NM (that rarely seems to be the case for full balanced parties).

I know that not all farming runs are quite so easy but I think that many or even most solo farmers work around the same idea of yield vs effort concepts that I do (even if they dont consciously call it that)

By the way you might want to look up the scientific definition of work. It is applicable here because we are talking about mathematical relationships with a number of variables. Solo farming doesnt actually take more effort and certainly doesnt take more time than a normal party size for a given area.

My last point is to assure you that I am actually not saying that I am for lootscaling..In fact enough very good points for both sides of the argument have come up here to convince me that this is not at all a black and white issue. I am undecided (And remember I am a solo farmer, but also someone who wants the best for the game as a whole). On the otherhand I felt it necessary to point out that arguments without basis in fact actually hurt your point by causing those who see the flaws to perhaps completely discount your point of view.

CHannum · Apr 10, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

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Originally Posted by reetkever

In other words, Casual farmers farm because they HAVE to.

Without getting back into any sort of heated exchange, I'm going to simply assert something: there is no such thing as a casual farmer. Farming in games pretty much defines the start of non-casual. Where precisely the cutoff comes is too subjective, but I feel quite safe is stating at the point you say to yourself, "I wonder if I can kill all the hyrda outside of Augury Rock by myself?" you are no longer just casually playing through the game.

Given that me and many other in this and other threads have managed to acquire max stat armor and items, complete all campaigns, etc. without farming makes it pretty clear there is never such a thing as farming for need, only for greed. I'm not assigning a value to greed, just pointing out that, quite literally, anything you might be farming for has nothing to do with an actual need relative to the game of guild wars.

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

There are casual farmers, but their gains from non-LS are insignificant compared to what hardcore farmers get.

Ate of DK · Apr 10, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I feel absolutely no need to farm in this game and can still buy most of the things I want. (Bought my ranger' FoW last februari, she's 31 months old now)

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

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Originally Posted by CHannum

Without getting back into any sort of heated exchange, I'm going to simply assert something: there is no such thing as a casual farmer. Farming in games pretty much defines the start of non-casual. Where precisely the cutoff comes is too subjective, but I feel quite safe is stating at the point you say to yourself, "I wonder if I can kill all the hyrda outside of Augury Rock by myself?" you are no longer just casually playing through the game.

Given that me and many other in this and other threads have managed to acquire max stat armor and items, complete all campaigns, etc. without farming makes it pretty clear there is never such a thing as farming for need, only for greed. I'm not assigning a value to greed, just pointing out that, quite literally, anything you might be farming for has nothing to do with an actual need relative to the game of guild wars.

You don't have a clue what farming is, do you? So when you're farming for Jade Mandibles to get your collector's armour (Droks armour is still too expensive for alot of players that don't save up on their cash), you're a Hardcore farmer in your eyes. Real smooth man... Remember that quest in Istan where you have to get 3 Insect Legs to complete it? So if you do that quest, you are a Hardcore farmer? Oh, and a horse equals a cow because they are both four-legged creatures?

Don't compare casual farming with hardcore farming. It is thanks to these kind of posts that everyone thinks that Troll Farming makes people rich, while the guys getting 5 ecto's a day end up being left alone while they DO fill up their storage with cash rather quick.

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Originally Posted by Savio

There are casual farmers, but their gains from non-LS are insignificant compared to what hardcore farmers get.

Sure, Hardcore farmers get more loot too, but who cares? Only the elitists care, but they are usually hardcore farmers themselves, so yeah... For the regular player, it wouldn't matter at all if hardcore players got the extra few platinum per hour. After all, this is still nothing compared to the 50K+ they can make every day.

Fay Vert · Apr 10, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

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Originally Posted by Savio

Prices mainly went down due to major changes in drops, basically when new chapters were released. Inbetween those updates, there were quite a few times when prices went up.

The latest new toy is always expensive, that has nothig to do with the gold economy, that's just the way it is with new toys. Chapter/new item release has always been that way and the exact same is true with the loot nerf as without. The point about inflation is that prices didn't rise from their initial value, but fell, that is deflation. So claims that removing LS will cause inflation are completely without foundation or precident, that is the myth.

CHannum · Apr 10, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

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Originally Posted by reetkever

You don't have a clue what farming is, do you?

I know exactly what farming is, it's you who clearly don't. Actually, I think you do know exactly what farming is at some level, but for the purposes of this thread, you redefine it and its role in the game as it suits your insane need to play the victim.

If you're going to define farming as any activity where you kill something and hope something drops, well, no damn wonder you're so confused and frustated by the game.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

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Originally Posted by CHannum

I know exactly what farming is, it's you who clearly don't. Actually, I think you do know exactly what farming is at some level, but for the purposes of this thread, you redefine it and its role in the game as it suits your insane need to play the victim.

If you're going to define farming as any activity where you kill something and hope something drops, well, no damn wonder you're so confused and frustated by the game.

Instead of continuing the personal attacks against me, just anwser the question first. It's funny how most pro-LS people only attack the anti-LS people and ignore the facts or questions that they state, I wonder if it has anything to do with the inability to anwser these questions.

The purpose of this thread has nothing to do with it. You clearly think that any kind of farming is hardcore farming, and as long as you think that you have NO idea of the situation casual farmers are in. Don't confuse casual farmers, who farm to play the game, with Hardcore farmers, who play to become rich.

Oh, and would you FINALLY anwser why you are against the removal of the LS?

Loviatar · Apr 10, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by tmakinen

The death of Superior Absorption came when it became known that the reduction is vs. physical only and non-stacking and non-universal (it may have been that way from the beginning - don't remember - but at some point it was explicitly stated).

dont you mean the boots for non universal? bug fix?

superior absorb does not require a superior absorb on each piece of armor so very wrong again.

the sup absorb/ sup vigor held their constant 100k/75k prices almost a year after guaranteed salvage in june 2005 update.

HERE IS WHAT DONE THE PRICE HOARDIBG PLAYERS IN

APRIL 2006 UPDATE the dev announvement was 3 X

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RUNES

Increased probability of finding Superior Vigor and Superior Absorption runes.
Changed new rare (gold) armor to only provide superior (gold) runes.

they were half price as the hoarders panic sold them before a new rune hit the ground.

i loved it

Creeping Carl · Apr 10, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Solo farmers do the work of 8 people but only get 1/8 of what they deserve, while normal players have 8 times more assistence and still get the same amount of loot, how exactly is this fair???

That is such a pack of bull. Solo farmers do NOT do the work of 8 people. If that were really the case then farming would stop being an efficient way of making money and people wouldnt bother doing it.

And solo farmers get 8 times the non LS affected loot than those in a full team, as others have pointed out. The whole point of farming is that it's a far more productive and faster way of getting loot than playing in a full team. Your claims are outright lies and you sure arent going to fool anyone.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Casual farmers are farmers that don't have the time to waste in an outpost trying to sell an item for 10 hours. For them, white junk is the only good source of income, since other stuff is only worth something when sold to other players.

In other words, Casual farmers farm because they HAVE to. They farm to play the game, instead of dicking around in an outpost trying to sell a super-rare item that makes them insta-rich IF they manage to sell it.

Let me ask you, why does a casual farmer HAVE to do anything? I consider myself a casual player since I play 2 hours a week average and have done the occasional farm during special event weekends. I don't need to be "insta-rich", I just play and slowly save up my gold. If I get a "super-rare item" that I want to sell, I just put it on the forum. Sure it's not part of the game structure, but it's there for my disposal. Besides, a lack of a trade market has nothing to do with LS.

Gli · Apr 10, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Except that these items are all chance-based and something good barely drops.

Sure, they're rare. But solo-farming, you'll still get upward of 30 times more of them than when playing in a full party.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Also, I believe we are not looking at Hard Mode here, but at Normal Mode. Hard Mode is only for the hardcore farmers.

It's the same in normal mode.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

90% of the items on the Exemption List are worth less than 100 gold. The rest is worth something more, but ONLY if you sell to real players.

Wait, what? We're talking about the same game, right? Because, apart from most dyes and a few rare material drops, practically everything on that list sells for more than 100 gold at the merchants and traders.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

The Exemption List supports Hardcore farming. I can understand that some people farm 10 hours a day, get 3 req 8 Elemental Swords and then spend another 3 weeks to sell them in LA, but casual players don't want to spend 3 weeks standing in an outpost doing nothing just for a few platinum. Cash isn't the thing that matters, it's the stuff you buy with the cash.

I got it, you're living in a fantasy world. Most farmers, hardcore or otherwise, make the lion's share of their gold from merching. Also, you're confusing 'hardcore' and 'efficient'. I have people in my guild who farm 30 minutes at a time, not even every day, not even every week. But they do it where it counts, and make a decent buck. I know how well they do because they let me ID their rares. Are they hardcore? Casual? Or perhaps we should just drop your black&white hardcore vs. casual nonsense.

Also:

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Originally Posted by reetkever

The Exemption List supports Hardcore farming.

No, it helps anyone proportional to how many monsters they kill solo. Which is as fair as it gets.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes, because when farming in Normal Mode, these items barely drop, and when they drop, they're still worthless 80% of the time.

Please enumerate all these worthless exempted items you're talking about, because I don't have a effin' clue.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

This is all a matter of chance, but if you get loads of black dyes, lockpicks and perfect goldies, you are the one that is lucky, it's not the others that are unlucky.

I don't get a whole lot of really special stuff, but contrary to what you believe, it adds up to a respectable figure. I can't help feeling you're either spoiled rotten, or quite detached from the reality of the game. Mmm... didn't you claim earlier that you could hardly afford your ID/salvage kits?

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Casual farmers are farmers that don't have the time to waste in an outpost trying to sell an item for 10 hours. For them, white junk is the only good source of income, since other stuff is only worth something when sold to other players.

Casual farmers are probably also not pink elephants. I don't want to know what they aren't, I want to know what it is exactly they do to be in so much trouble from loot scaling.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

In other words, Casual farmers farm because they HAVE to. They farm to play the game, instead of dicking around in an outpost trying to sell a super-rare item that makes them insta-rich IF they manage to sell it.

They play the game you say, and they even farm, 'casually', whatever that may mean, yet they manage to completely avoid making enough money to get by... Man, they must suck at this game.

Master Knightfall · Apr 10, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

and.... if anet cared not a a jot about what we (the selective forum community) thought why have a dedicated community relations manager posting here?

You obviously don't know anything about the business world or PR's and CR's. They are there for the ILLUSION that the company really does care what you have to say, but, really doesn't. It's just a PROP and most people like YOU fall for it and THINK you are important and your opinion and others opinon have value because there is a "representative" around? lmao

MithranArkanere · Apr 10, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

I must remember that the most effective builds work better in HM.
And in HM there are places with MORE monsters to kill in HM.

I must also rmemeber that are some monster that are EASIER to beat in HM, like the Doppleganger, thanks to that is easier to use their increased speed and damage against them.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Sure, they're rare. But solo-farming, you'll still get upward of 30 times more of them than when playing in a full party.

It's the same in normal mode.

Wait, what? We're talking about the same game, right? Because, apart from most dyes and a few rare material drops, practically everything on that list sells for more than 100 gold at the merchants and traders.

I got it, you're living in a fantasy world. Most farmers, hardcore or otherwise, make the lion's share of their gold from merching. Also, you're confusing 'hardcore' and 'efficient'. I have people in my guild who farm 30 minutes at a time, not even every day, not even every week. But they do it where it counts, and make a decent buck. I know how well they do because they let me ID their rares. Are they hardcore? Casual? Or perhaps we should just drop your black&white hardcore vs. casual nonsense.

Also:
No, it helps anyone proportional to how many monsters they kill solo. Which is as fair as it gets.

Please enumerate all these worthless exempted items you're talking about, because I don't have a effin' clue.

I don't get a whole lot of really special stuff, but contrary to what you believe, it adds up to a respectable figure. I can't help feeling you're either spoiled rotten, or quite detached from the reality of the game. Mmm... didn't you claim earlier that you could hardly afford your ID/salvage kits?

Casual farmers are probably also not pink elephants. I don't want to know what they aren't, I want to know what it is exactly they do to be in so much trouble from loot scaling.

They play the game you say, and they even farm, 'casually', whatever that may mean, yet they manage to completely avoid making enough money to get by... Man, they must suck at this game.

I've explained countless times, but I guess you just don't WANT to understand, eh? Don't think everyone gets enough cash in this game just because you and a few others do. YOU are living in a fantasy world where the LS seems to deliver you unlimited prosperity and happiness. And how the hell does someone get 30 times as much when playing solo? Solo farmers barely make more money due to the fact they only do a few farming runs per day, and the farming runs only net 500-1,5K. Sure, they make more than 8-man parties, but that's not too hard, since when playing in an 8-man party, almost nothing drops.

When I'm talking about exempted items, I'm talking about Purple Dyes, Fur Squares, golden req 13 Restoration Magic Wands etc. Tomes and Lockpicks only drop in Hard Mode so they have nothing to do with the casual farmers. They are still pretty friggin rare even when farming... In fact, back in the good ol' days, the chances of finding a goldy were VERY slim, even when killing so many monsters...

Casual farmers don't LIKE to farm. They HAVE to. They're the people that just don't make enough money from the 2 or 3 drops you get in a mission or quest. They don't want to spend time farming, so they did simple farm runs for a little bit of cash. Any golden weapons were just merched, cause it'd take too long to sell, anyway. This is where it is different with the hardcore farming, where people make 50K+ with 1 item because they farm stuff like ecto's several hours a day, and spend even more time selling that item.

And again, you are just whining about the anti-LS people, but you fail again to make a SINGLE argument as to why NOT remove the LS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I must remember that the most effective builds work better in HM.
And in HM there are places with MORE monsters to kill in HM.

I must also rmemeber that are some monster that are EASIER to beat in HM, like the Doppleganger, thanks to that is easier to use their increased speed and damage against them.

I still believe that Hard Mode SHOULD be under the effects of the Loot Scaling. If Hard Mode was too easy to farm, the prices of everything would lower too much.

Gli · Apr 10, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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Originally Posted by reetkever

I've explained countless times, but I guess you just don't WANT to understand, eh? Don't think everyone gets enough cash in this game just because you and a few others do.

I know dozens of people who play in many different ways, and I've never heard any of them complaining about a shortage of cash. Not a single one. In fact, even among the anti-loot scaling people, you're a lonely voice. Most are just greedy or claim to have more fun when they get more drops. You're practically the only one anywhere who's actually complaining about a shortage of cash. It boggles the mind!

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Originally Posted by reetkever

YOU are living in a fantasy world where the LS seems to deliver you unlimited prosperity and happiness. And how the hell does someone get 30 times as much when playing solo?

I said, you get upward of 30 times as much of the items of the exempted list. If you can't figure out how that works, I can't help you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Solo farmers barely make more money due to the fact they only do a few farming runs per day, and the farming runs only net 500-1,5K. Sure, they make more than 8-man parties, but that's not too hard, since when playing in an 8-man party, almost nothing drops.

A few times 500-1,500 per day... how much is a few? 2? 3? 4? That makes 1,000-6,000 per day. And that's just from 'casual farming'? Sounds to me like a fine income for a casual farmer.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

When I'm talking about exempted items, I'm talking about Purple Dyes, Fur Squares, golden req 13 Restoration Magic Wands etc.

So, purple dyes and fur squares make up 90% of the exempted list now? And golden req 13 Restoration Magic Wands, aren't they at least somewhere near 240? Surely not less than 100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Tomes and Lockpicks only drop in Hard Mode so they have nothing to do with the casual farmers. They are still pretty friggin rare even when farming... In fact, back in the good ol' days, the chances of finding a goldy were VERY slim, even when killing so many monsters...

I still don't know what a casual farmer does, but we're getting there, slowly, I guess. We learned that they don't farm on HM. And about goldies... do you even realize that the chance for finding goldies while doing your few daily casual farming runs has never been as high as after loot scaling was introduced, thanks to the removal of loot degradation for repeated runs? Do you even still try to farm? Because you strike me as someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Casual farmers don't LIKE to farm. They HAVE to. They're the people that just don't make enough money from the 2 or 3 drops you get in a mission or quest.

2 or 3 drops? Mmm... I usually have to bring salvage kits so I don't have to leave drops behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

They don't want to spend time farming, so they did simple farm runs for a little bit of cash. Any golden weapons were just merched, cause it'd take too long to sell, anyway. This is where it is different with the hardcore farming, where people make 50K+ with 1 item because they farm stuff like ecto's several hours a day, and spend even more time selling that item.

Again, how about dropping that horribly myopic black and white interpretation of the issue? You're dismissing all the people who aren't hardcore farmers, but efficient farmers, who can make plenty of easy money doing a few runs a day and just merching stuff.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

And again, you are just whining about the anti-LS people, but you fail again to make a SINGLE argument as to why NOT remove the LS.

Oh, the irony. I'm not whining, I'm celebrating the way the game works now. I'm jubilant! Hint: whining usually involves some kind of complaint. Look hard at these posts and see who's the one complaining. Another hint: it's not me! And for your information, I've made my points time and time again. Go look for them, I get tired of reiterating them.

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Originally Posted by reetkever

I still believe that Hard Mode SHOULD be under the effects of the Loot Scaling. If Hard Mode was too easy to farm, the prices of everything would lower too much.

That's just silly... you want me to find more merchant junk if I go outside in normal mode and kill my favorite mob of 30-40 than when I do the same in hard mode? I give up trying to understand how your mind works. Consider the towel thrown into the ring.

ogre_jd · Apr 10, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Tomes and Lockpicks only drop in Hard Mode so they have nothing to do with the casual farmers.

Tomes, I suppose. Lockpicks? Nuh-uh. They drop in normal mode. Got around 30 Treasure Hunter points thanks to lockpicks that dropped, mostly in EotN. (and another half-dozen or so points from various quest reward lockpicks) I refuse to pay for 'em.

EDIT: And just got another lockpick off the ground during "Assault on the Stronghold".

cebalrai · Apr 10, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

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Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Well...whatever you're doing is obviouslly working for you, why should you care if LS is removed? You have enough items/gold, etc to keep you happy (and you've never solo farmed, congrats!). And now look at what I can do, see how utterly ignorant you are?

Why should I care if other people are duping armbraces? After all, whatever I'm doing works for me. Why should I care if people are getting rich quick with minimal effort?

See how bad your logic fails at every turn?

cebalrai · Apr 10, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

And...why are you going on about how poor you are, when you say that you have millions of gold across your account, oodles of 15k sets, and a dozen leet weapons?

Can you please quote me on where I said how poor I was?

No, you can't because I never said it.

Not only does your logic fail (at every turn), you make stuff up.